Studying Recovery Schools

David Condos: Hey, guys. Welcome to another episode of Recovery Unscripted. I’m David Condos, and this podcast is powered by Foundations Recovery Network. For today’s show, I’m joined by Dr. Andrew Finch, one of the country’s foremost authorities on integrating education and recovery support in an academic setting. Currently a professor of counseling at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, he’s also leading the first large-scale research studies on the effectiveness of recovery schools and is co-founder of the Association of Recovery Schools.He sat down with me to discuss why these institutions are uniquely positioned to help alter students’ trajectories for the future and how his experience serving with them has broadened his view of what recovery can mean. I’m here with Andrew Finch. Thank you for being with us today.

Dr. Andrew Finch: Sure, glad to be here.

David: Let’s start off by having you tell us a little bit about your personal story and how you got started in the world of counseling and education.

Dr. Finch: This was something that I didn’t intend to do as I was growing up. I actually thought I would be a sports announcer from my entire life and actually did that professionally for a few years. I just started to want a little bit more. Nobody in my immediate family had ever graduated college, leave alone go on for graduate study. It was a bit of a foreign concept to me. I had had some friends who had moved to Nashville and I had come to visit them and have walked around Vanderbilt campus and just started to really think that I might want to go back to school.

I thought of a lot of different professions and counseling just stood out to me. I don’t think I completely understood what that was as a sports announcer in a small town in Kansas. I had spent a lot of time in high schools and gotten to know a lot of school counselors who were coaches and I thought, “That sounds like a fun profession.”

David: Now, you’re back at Vanderbilt as a professor. Could you tell us what your role is there now?

Dr. Finch: I’m an associate professor of the practice of Human and Organizational Development in the department that has a pretty diverse teaching portfolio everywhere from organizational theory to counseling. My main job is to be the school counseling coordinator for the master’s program where I got my master’s degree. I’ve almost come complete circle teaching some of the classes that I took years and years ago.

David: You’re working with the next generation of school counselor specifically?

Dr. Finch: Yes. Like I said, many of the same classes, I teach a developmental course, career counseling. I teach an addictions course, but it also gives me the ability and the freedom to continue doing research. Vanderbilt really values not only teaching and student advising, but certainly research at the research university. It’s really given me the opportunity to continue doing that as well.

David: As another part of what you’re doing at Vanderbilt, you’re helping to lead the collegiate recovery program there called Vanderbilt Recovery Support. Could you tell us a little bit more about how that works, how it helps students in recovery avoid some of the triggers which we all know are so common on college campus, but then also build positive community around them?

Dr. Finch: I actually help to get that program started soon after I came on to the faculty about 2007. They really started wanting to look at recovery and substance use on campus and what types of programming might be helpful. They had some awareness of programs around the country at that time. Back in 2006, 2007 there weren’t a lot of collegiate recovery programs in the country. It has grown exponentially since that time. I think when it started it was just maybe a couple of support meetings with just the handful students.

It has continued to get more students involved with it, become much more part of Vanderbilt. Even now has dorm space that is allotted for students in recovery. It’s continued to expand over time.

David: Do you know how many similar recovery programs that are out there at other colleges?

Dr. Finch: That number continues to grow. The latest I heard was somewhere between 70, 80 to 100 in process. The collegiate recovery movement has really exploded. They’re been a couple of real angels out there that have helped that happen. Texas Tech University in Lubbock got some federal funding to create a replicable model. The Stacey Matthews and Foundation out in California really invested in growing the number of collegiate recovery programs. Again, as–

David: Let’s dive in a bit deeper here. In 2004, Texas Tech received a federal grant to establish the center for collegiate recovery communities with the goal of researching and creating a step-by-step guide that could help other colleges set up similar programs of their own now called the Collegiate Recovery Communities Curriculum. This guide has helped scores of other colleges follow Texas Tech’s footsteps. It was even designated as the model for collegiate recovery programming by the office of National Drug Control Policy in 2011. And the guide… it’s all still available for free on their website.

The second angel Dr. Finch mentioned was the Stacey Matthews and the foundation which was started by Ms. Matthews after losing her son to an opioid overdose. Through an organization called Transforming Youth Recovery, they’ve given out $10,000 grants to over 140 colleges since 2013 all with the purpose of helping those schools launch campus recovery programs. Here’s Dr. Finch with more.

Dr. Finch: — recovery support programs. I think those two efforts along with just a lot of interest both from government officials, but also grassroots volunteers, has a lot a bit collegiate recovery programs to really pop up on all types of campuses.

David: You said maybe 70 to 100. That still seems there’s a lot of need out there.

Dr. Finch: Certainly.

David: Why is it so important for more colleges to acknowledge that this is a problem and do something about it?

Dr. Finch: Well, I don’t think it’s any secret that alcohol and drug use is pretty prevalent on our college campuses. For students who realize that they’ve developed the substance use disorder while they’re in college, they can be very difficult to stop using in that atmosphere. It’s so accepted. I hear story after story about students that maybe even just want to reduce their usage, but how hard that is when so much of the recreational activity involves alcohol and drugs. So much of group bonding activity involves alcohol and drugs. For person’s developed a little problem with that, if it’s around then it’s going to be difficult to stay away from it.

I think that’s where collegiate recovery can step in. Not only does it help people develop the skills to stay away from the substances, it gives people a peer group, it gives people friends so that people don’t have to feel alone and isolated while they’re going through this. You’re right. The number of schools to me seems large. I can remember back when there was three and yet it’s still not enough. In other way, I like to think a bit is we have counseling centers that most of our college campuses now. Someday I would hope there are some type of collegiate recovery support at most of our college campuses. I think that certainly is a goal.

David: Big part of your history in this arena is with the recovery high schools and you’ve been an advocate for that for several years. That seems like the number of those are growing as well, but it still small around 35 to

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Dr. Finch: Yes, 34 or 40. I always have to be careful giving a firm number because schools don’t have to call me when they open nor do they have to call me when they close. We try to stay on top of that but feel pretty comfortable saying it’s about 40 of them in operation right now.

David: Because of that, like you said, a lot of them are even grassroots. I think this is a concept that a lot of people are just not familiar with. Could you get a sense of this part of the discussion by giving a quick introduction about what recovery schools are?

Dr. Finch: Recovery high schools are obviously schools by identity. I think because they deal specifically with alcohol and drug use, people can think they’re treatment programs. That’s not really what they are. They’re providing recovery support for the students who are enrolled. They are small schools typically. Average size is about 30 students. Biggest is about 100 students. So you’re thinking of a very small school in which all of the students who are enrolled are self-identified as having a substance use problem.

Most have an actual certified substance use disorder and most have been to prior treatment though not all, but really one of the criteria that makes at the recovery high schools that the students, all of the students who enrolled are really committed to working a program of recovery of some sort. The fact that it’s a school it’s giving credits. Many students actually do graduate from these schools. They’re not by design temporary replacements for some of these days on top with their credits while they get treatment, rather they’re really invested in the school, getting their education while staying clean and sober.

I think that’s the distinction between the recovery high school and the school that you might find say in a treatment center. At the end of the day, that’s one of the pieces that makes them so valuable, it is that they are there for a longer term. There have been students that have spent all four years of their high school career in a recovery high school. That’s rare, most people are getting maybe sophomore junior year by the time they really decide they need a recovery high school to support their recovery, but then it’s there for them as long as they need it.

David: That’s something that I hear a lot when I’m talking to people for the podcast. It’s like I wish we could have them longer. Some of that is dictated by insurance, by that I mean to have them for two or three years. Seems like that is such a unique opportunity.

Dr. Finch: We have to keep in mind, at least at a baseline, the student has to express some real willingness and desire right on the front end so that you are creating a community of students who are wanting to be clean and sober and will support each other through that. The long-term nature of it becomes possible because of that.

David: Now looking at it from the student perspective, how do teens and their families find out about this and get connected with the school in their area?

David: There are a variety of ways. Word of mouth, of course, is probably the strongest, but treatment centers I think when recovery high schools open one of the things we always tell them to do is make really good relationships with the treatment programs in your area. That being said, not every young person has access to treatment. We know there’s real disparities out there in the world of treatment, not everybody can afford it.

Transportation is an issue, we also know there’s racial disparities. We know that historically, people of color have often found their way into the justice system, there’s been some really rampant discrimination in that way, and sadly, you can actually see it in the people who’ve gone to treatment and the people who leave treatment. There’s some disparities there, and for many years we saw that on the recovery high schools. I think what we’ve realized over the last few years is that recovery high schools need to work hard that they don’t perpetuate that. We can’t just sit back and rely on treatment centers to refer kids, even though that is a really valuable resource and a necessary one. What about those kids that want to get clean and sober that haven’t had access to treatment, can they still benefit? The answer is yes. You’ve seen recovery high schools really reach out into obviously the existing traditional schools system, other types of community agencies that might be servicing kids who haven’t had access to treatment.

David: They might be referred from a regular high school counselor?

Dr. Finch: Yes. Now, the tricky part is, as I said earlier, these are recovery support programs rather than treatment programs and so if someone has decided say yesterday, that they really want a different school, and they want to get clean and sober, there’s a range of readiness. The recovery high schools are really not set up or designed to be providing that primary care, so I think if that’s something that a person really does need, then that’s probably going to be people who are ready. They can actually get clean and sober, they haven’t had treatment, but they can actually get into a community like this and be successful.
Like I said before, recovery high schools have tried to open up the doors and not put too many restrictions beyond that real base level of willingness and that real desire and then try to keep that environment clean and sober while they are there.

David: Like you said, a lot of the kids had been to test met before, so where do you view recovery high schools within that continuum. I know you said some of the curriculum or some of the support could be similar to where they get the treatment, but what’s the distinction there?

Dr. Finch: I think when they started, and again, we have to go back, recovery high school started in 1979. Back in that day, it was a fairly linear view of the cycle. We have prevention program, then you had identification, then you had treatment, and then you had recovery support or continuing care. When the recovery high school started, I think they would have said that’s what they are. However, I think that continuum has evolved over time. I think for many people, they see recovery as a starting the minute a person has decided they want to reduce and stop their alcohol and drug usage. That’s recovery.

I would say for recovery schools, that’s where they fit in. They are fitting in that spot where that person really is ready. For most, that’s going to be after some type of treatment. For many, it may not be. To add on to that, we realize that addiction is a chronic relapsing disease. I think in that respect, the reality that someone is going to get clean and sober and stay that for the rest of their lives when they are 15 years old, is unrealistic. The schools have known that from day one. I think that’s something that we’ve all had to learn.

I will tell you when I was first working in the recovery high school in 1997, I started asking, “What should we do when someone relapses?” What I was told was we had to kick them out because they’ll just infect the whole school. I will tell you that never felt right to me. It just felt inconsistent with what we were trying to do. From really the beginning recovery high schools have realized that when a person is in that school, the chances are better than not that they are going to use again. The key is how you respond. The key is what you do, that’s what makes the school so powerful, when someone comes back and they say, “I used this weekend” they are surrounded by a number of people who know what that feels like. They are immediately supported.

They are often confronted, “Why didn’t you call me? I’m here to help you”, or setting up plans for students to make sure that maybe they take different steps the next time, and sure enough, it’s probably going to happen again. What you hope is that you start spreading out the length of time and that these episodes become isolated and overtime, they start to dissolve. Recovery high school tend to give students many, many chances as long as they are continuing to show that openness and willingness.

David: It seems that it’s more about that mindset of willingness as opposed to any tangible thing.

Dr. Finch: People had asked me what do I think really makes the schools work. I think number one is the peer accountability. It’s the peer support. It’s connecting with another person and so it starts to become this other type of peer pressure, a peer pressure not to use. I actually think there’s a lot more realness in a place like that. People truly talking about what’s going on, for them, and I think in that scenario, it’s something where kids thrive and I think for the first time, start to figure out who they really are as opposed to covering up and acting like something else.

Then at the end of the day, most of these schools are not residential. Really, the end of the day the only part that they are getting that therapeutic support from the school is during the school day, the rest of the time, they have to figure it out on their own and they now have a community of peers to help them through that. People they can call that aren’t going to say, “Hey, let’s go party, or let’s go use.”

They may say, “Let’s go party” that’s no code for, “Let’s go use.” That’s,” Let’s go have fun and not use.” That’s just something that I don’t think most of the teenagers in the recovery high schools would ever imagine would be possible, but they learn how to do that. Which is critical.

David: Coming up, Dr. Finch shares what his trailblazing research studies are saying about how recovery schools work and he describes how some schools are overcoming the common challenges they face, but first, I get to introduce another installment of our trivia segment called This Week in Recovery History. Today’s question highlights the American Temperance Society, the largest early social organization to promote alcohol abstinence. It was founded on this very week in which of the following years: 1806, 1826, or 1846? Find out after the interview?

Now, back to my conversation with Dr. Finch.

As you mentioned, since the conversation of recovery schools is relatively new, there hasn’t been a tone of research I guess until really recently that answers the ultimate question of, do they work? Or, are they better? I know that’s something that you’ve been working on a lot over the last few years with some federal grants and I read you’ve been a first large-scale study to answer that question. Could you tell us what those studies looked at, and what the findings told you?

Dr. Finch: I think when I first started doing this, I had the same question everybody else had is, “Do they work?” What I’ve learned is, first of all, you have to define what you mean by work, what is success. But I had to take a step even further back, and that is define even what is a recovery high school because again, there is no requirement that schools do certain things necessarily to be a recovery high school.

We spent a number of years, a colleague from the University of Wilkinson and I visited 17 schools in 10 different states and spent time there and really tried to understand what are these schools doing? What are the commonalities? And came up with real descriptions about what recovery high schools are and what they do. Then the next step was, is there a way of figuring out that kids that go into recovery high schools do better, so to speak than kids who don’t? We set up a study to compare kids who had had treatment and went into a recovery high school for at least a month to kids who did not. Granted, there’s plenty of kids who haven’t had treatment that have gone into recovery High schools, but we wanted to focus in on apples to apples.

David: Yes, it’s easier to compare them.

Dr. Finch: That’s what we did. We enrolled students and we track them, three months, six months, twelve months later and collected data. We collected data both on types of outcomes, alcohol and drug outcomes, mental health outcomes, but also academic outcomes. We are still analyzing the data, it’s probably going to be published over the next year, two years. We have had a couple of publications of that data and it’s really positive. Some of the data that’s the most significant that we’ve seen has been relapse rates. Students that go into recovery high schools after treatment are about twice as likely to stay abstinent as those who do not, which is a major difference in this field. Those of us who have read treatment research, we don’t tend to see numbers quite like that. The other thing is about a 20% point higher rate of graduation. There’s less absenteeism. Then as I said before, people do use drugs again after treatment, teenagers especially, and what we found is significantly fewer days of Marijuana usage. Really most of the data points saw a positive effect of recovery high schools and some are statistically significant.

David: I’m glad you mentioned on that academic side too because that was something I was thinking about because these are still schools. You need to help prepare these kids for college or whatever they are going to do next, so that’s cool to hear that the graduation rate in some of those academic statistics have been just as promising as the other recovery statistics.

Dr. Finch: Yes, and I think the next thing we need to look at is, what are those long-term effects? I think certainly many of us do focus in on the alcohol and drug piece of it because that’s what the schools are identified with, but I think there’s a lot of other life functioning that the schools are preparing the kids for. I’ve actually had the real benefit of interviewing people that were in recovery high schools 20 and 30 years ago. I’m actually working on the history of recovery high schools and that’s one of the more moving things I’ve ever done, finding people who were in some of those original schools back in Maryland in the ’80s. Just talking about their lives, and so maybe they can go —

David: Here’s a bit more on this. The first recovery school was called Phoenix and was a part of the Montgomery County public school district in Maryland. The Phoenix model was originally designed to help students who were in recovery already and voluntarily committed to maintain sobriety as they completed their graduation requirements. At its peak, Phoenix had about 50 students a year, across two campuses, in the affluent suburbs north of Washington DC. A number of factors eventually led to dwindling and lament including funding cuts, shifting priorities among district leadership, and even an arson fire that destroyed one of the campuses in 2001.

By 2009, Phoenix and three other alternative programs were absorbed into a regular school, fracturing the tight community that had made Phoenix successful. The program officially closed in 2013 after having just three students enrolled during its final year.

Dr. Finch: — isolation, and not all of them are clean today, but they look at that period of time they spent in recovery high school as life-changing. Perhaps when I first started, I thought really the goal was to help a person get off of drugs and stay alcohol and drug-free the rest of their lives. I think what I’ve realized is that I think for some people, that actually does happen, but I think where it enters into their life, that may or may not be necessary.

At the end of the day, there may be students that are able to drink successfully for the rest or their life, but I also believe that virtually none of those kids was on that path when they entered the school. Even though many may be clean and sober the rest of their lives, I would say that for those that have returned to using, they have other resources to fall back upon, and anecdotally at least I think that’d probably one of the major legacies of recovery high schools in their lives.

David: I imagine it has broader effect even on the community.

Dr. Finch: Yes. One of the things that we’ve done in our work is we’ve also done a cost-benefit analysis and that’s still in the works. Certainly trying to compute what is the benefit in the society of taking a teenager and pulling them out of that trajectory of problem drug usage. Making sure that they are actually contributing to society, they are getting employed, they are maintaining employment. I think all of these things have a real cost benefit. I think that’s another point. Right now, we are in a period that’s getting a lot of attention with an opiate epidemic.

The reality is, teenagers are a fairly small percentage of that. There’s certainly teenagers who are overdosing and dying, but when you look at, like I just saw monitoring the future study for the last year, show that that number is continuing to be on decline actually. Opiate usage at that age group is still a fairly small percentage. What I would say is that if you look at the students who come into recovery high schools, those are a high-risk group to become opiate addicts when they get out of high school. I think that recovery high schools have really played a role of mitigating that, and I think that’s a preventative role.

Even though they are a recovery program, they are preventing students from becoming opiate users. Not just opiate users, problems alcohol and drug users in their early 20s and they are giving kids resources when all the threats start to hit them from every side that they can lean on. That without the recovery high school arguably, many of those students would not have developed that.

David: With all the positive signs that you are seeing in the research so far, why aren’t there more recovery high schools? What are some of the barriers or obstacles that they are facing?

Dr. Finch: Extremely complicated to get going. When you are offering a high school diploma, you have to have teachers, you have to have a credited curriculum, you are working with minors, it’s over the course of an entire day. Then ultimately, starting to build an enrolment, it can take some time to build some awareness, to build a legitimate reputation in that community, and to start getting the referrals to come in, but then even once they do, we have to realize that every year, a large number of students is going to graduate, move on. It’s this constant cycle of having to build that enrolment black up because students aren’t forced to be in these schools.

David: Yes, and you have first-hand experience with this, you helped found and so does the director for Nashville’s first recovery school and it was called community?

Dr. Finch: Yes, it was called Community High School. It started as Oasis Academy. We were part of the Oasis Center for a couple of years and then we spun it off, and renamed it Community High School. That school was in existence until 2008. One thing about that school though, is it was completely private, it was an independent school. We never received any public funding, and so the students who attended there had to pay a tuition, it was, I thought, fairly low tuition. That meant that we had to continually fundraise. In the end, it was a hill too high to climb and the school closed.

I often tell people when they are wanting to start a school today, “If possible, try to find a way to get into the public sector” because I think public funding can take some of the pressure off the people who run that school from always having to be seeking additional funding. Then they can focus on their mission. It’s encouraging actually to see states around the country creating funding initiatives for recovery of that school.

David: Yes, that’s what I was going to ask. That wasn’t something that you had success with here, but it is are you starting to see more of that may be in other cities?

Dr. Finch: We are actually, and it’s more of state-level initiatives and we’ve seen Pennsylvania recently pass legislation, Minnesota has legislation, Massachusetts has had legislation since 2006, and so they are receiving funds from the state, often times they just free up the per-pupil allotment so that students can attend those schools and basically put some into that school choice arena so that kids can take that funds into a recovery high school. That means a family doesn’t have a financial barrier, they can actually go if they can get there.

Transportation is still an issue in a number of places but at least they are not faced with stiff fees that form an impediment. Tennessee has just recently put an initiative on the table to try fund some recovery high schools and I’ve even heard that there’s an initiative at the federal level to create an act regarding recovery high schools. I think they are starting to get some attention, and people are starting to see this might be a place to make some investment in adolescents. Just place little investment in adolescent recovery supports over the years. I think this might be a place we start to see it.

David: You touched a little bit on this earlier, but what would be some advice you might give someone if they are interested in maybe starting a recovery school, or just serving at a recovery school, from your experience and all your trial and error that you’ve been through?

Dr. Finch: I think a good first step is to reach out to someone at the Association of Recovery Schools. There’s actually a website, recoveryschools.org. We developed accreditation standards —

David: I’m going to jump here real quick to shine some more light on what the Association of Recovery Schools does. At the time of this recording, ARS has 40 member schools in 15 states nationwide. A registered 501C3 non-profit, ARS brings together all the research in all the best practices to offer training and accreditation services to anyone who’s starting out or operating a recovery school.

This includes both one on one mentoring and a free online toolkit that provides everything from curriculum and research summaries to practical things like how to create a school budget and policies and handbooks. As you can imagine, the wide availability of these resources is a huge step forward for the successful growth of the Recovery School field. Now, back to Dr. Finch.

Dr. Finch: — those are available and I think people will quickly find that there are veterans in this field ready to step up and answer all the questions. But I’ll tell people, you don’t have to do this as if it’s a brand new thing. I think we’ve got many, many years of knowing what tends to work best. The other piece I would say is that there isn’t one model or one way to do this. Not every school’s going to have the opportunity to have a line item in a budget.

Maybe there isn’t readily available adolescent treatment in that area. Maybe there aren’t really open school choice laws. There’s a whole lot of issues that come up. The good news is, there are so many different types of schools that there’s probably somebody out there who can help but I just would tell people you don’t have to do it on your own. As far as people don’t want to work in a recovery high school if they can find one that’s near them, it is one of the most rewarding experiences they would ever have.

I would say as a teacher, as a counselor, as an administrator, as a volunteer, it certainly was for me. You work in this field, it can be trying, it can be stressful but there’s never a day that you don’t feel you’re making a difference and to sit and listen to a number of adolescents sit around a room and just talk about their life experience and how it is today, day after day compared to how it was. It gives me chills bill to think about that. It’s moving.

David: Yes, all right. I will wrap up with this final question. I know everyone who chooses to use their time and their skills to help further the cause of recovery has their own personal reasons for wanting to serve in that way. Could you close by describing why developing better ways for students to start a life of recovery and continue a life recovery is so important to you?

Dr. Finch: Yes, I am an adult child of an alcoholic, I think it’s something that my father’s alcohol usage made a pretty huge impression on my life as it does with any adult child of an alcoholic. I think it was something actually that I was pretty ignorant about until I became an adult. Again, something not uncommon for folks who grow up in that atmosphere and don’t quite know normal from abnormal so to speak.

I started to realize that about myself, I started to see just the ravages that addiction can have on family, on a person and just on society as I watched my own father struggle with that. I will tell you as far as my real dedication to recovery high schools, I feel very fortunate that people created that, gave me the opportunity to step into it. I’m certainly not the person that started this whole thing.

There have been many schools before I got involved but being able to sit with those first seven students that we had, I can still see their faces. I look back and that was powerful and they used to say this, “Everybody should have this. Everybody should have a place to go where they feel accepted and safe.” That has stayed with me and that still gives me fuel to keep going out there and making sure that we learn what works and develop best practices and help more people get up and get going.

David: All right, angel. Thank you for your time today.

Dr. Finch: Thanks for having me.

David: Thanks again to Dr. Finch for sharing that with us and thank you for sticking around to the end of this episode for another installment of our trivia segment this week in recovery history. Today’s question focused on the American Temperance Society or ATS which was founded in Boston on Feb 13th, 1826. Within 10 years, the ATS had expanded to include over 8,000 local chapters nationwide with one in a quarter million members each taking a pledge to abstain from alcohol. Some clues that explain its rapid growth can be found in the changing culture of its time especially popular in northern states.

The ATS rode the wave of reform sentiment that also gave strength to movements that would eventually abolish slavery and expand women’s rights. As the society evolved, the group’s emphasis shifted from voluntary abstinence to mandatory prohibition. As we learned in the last edition of This Week in Recovery History, prohibition did eventually though temporarily become the law of the land. Unfortunately for the ATS, the organization didn’t last long enough to see the fruits of its labor. After merging with a second group called the American Temperance Union, the society continued promoting its principles for just three more decades before dissolving in 1866. That’s the American Temperance Society, founded this week in the year 1826. Stay tuned for more trivia from recovery history in future episodes.

This has been the Recovery Unscripted podcast. Today, we’ve heard from Dr. Andrew Finch, educator, researcher, and advocate for recovery schools. For more on the Association of Recovery Schools, visit recoveryschools.org. Thank you for listening today. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please pass it along to someone else who might enjoy it as well. See you next time.